How Mould Illness Impacts Neurological Wellbeing

Did you know mould illness can lead to dementia-like symptoms?

In this podcast, we explore the impacts mould can have on the neurological system and the various symptoms that can arise from exposure to mould.

Our guest is Lisa McDonald, a clinical naturopath and expert in mould illness and chronic inflammatory response syndrome (CIRS). Lisa shares her personal experience with mould illness and how it led her to specialise in helping others with this condition. We touch on the lack of recognition and treatment options for mould illness in conventional medicine. Lisa provides advice on how to identify mould illness and offers insights into the naturopathic approaches she uses to support people suffering from mould illness and CIRS. 

Key Takeaways:

• Mould illness, also known as Chronic Inflammatory Response Syndrome (CIRS), is a multi-system illness that can affect the neurological system, gut, hormones, and more.
• Mould exposure can lead to a range of symptoms, including forgetfulness, difficulty concentrating, mood changes, allergies, and respiratory issues.
• Mould illness is often under-recognised and misdiagnosed in conventional medicine, leading to frustration and a lack of proper treatment for patients.
• Seeking out a practitioner with expertise in mould illness is crucial for proper diagnosis and treatment.
• In addition to avoiding mould exposure, supporting detoxification pathways, reducing inflammation, and supporting brain function and mitochondria are important aspects of naturopathic treatment for mould illness.

Episode Timestamps

[0:00:00]	Introduction to the topic of mould illness and its impact on neurological health
[0:02:05]	Lisa's personal experience with mould illness and her journey to becoming an expert
[0:06:31]	Discussion on the clinical term for mould illness: Chronic Inflammatory Response Syndrome (CIRS)
[0:08:41]	How to recognise mould illness and its varied symptoms
[0:11:48]	The role of genetics in mould illness susceptibility
[0:14:41]	The potential increase in mould illness cases due to flooding and humid climates
[0:16:21]	Lack of recognition and treatment options in conventional medicine
[0:18:13]	The neurological impact of mould illness, including cognitive impairments
[0:21:38]	Recommendations for individuals suspecting mould illness and the importance of professional assessments
[0:24:56]	Naturopathic approaches to supporting individuals with mould illness
[0:26:48]	Dietary considerations for mould illness, including low histamine and anti-inflammatory diets
[0:28:31]	How to find practitioners specialising in mould illness
[0:30:27]	Challenges for renters in addressing mould issues
[0:32:05]	Personal experiences and lessons learned from dealing with mould illness
[0:33:08]	Conclusion and gratitude for sharing expertise on the topic

 

Episode Transcript

**0:00:00** - (Bec): Today we're going to be talking about mould illness and some of the many ways that it affects our neurological system, with symptoms that you might recognise in yourself. My guest today is Lisa McDonald. She's a clinical naturopath and academic lecturer and a board member for the Australian Register of Naturopaths and Herbalists. In addition to her naturopathic qualification, she also holds Bachelor degree in Psychology and is currently completing her advanced Master's degree in naturopathy through Southern Cross Uni in Australia.

She has a personal background with Chronic Inflammatory Response Syndrome, which we're going to talk about, and it became her passion to help others that were in situations like hers, and couldn't find any answers. She's one of the few naturopaths in Australia that have gone on to do further study in Chronic Inflammatory Response Syndrome, also known as mould illness for many. And so she's learned a lot about how to treat this as a multi-system illness.

Lisa is a serial learner, and her knowledge in nutrigenomics psychology, functional medicine, CIRS protocols makes her an absolute expert on this subject. And I'm absolutely thrilled to be talking about it with her today. She's helped hundreds of patients navigate mould illness, and I thank her very much for taking the time to share her experience with us today. 

All right, so thank you so much for joining me for this chat, Lisa. It's a really important topic, I feel, and one that doesn't get nearly enough airtime, and that is those connections between mould illness and how it can affect our neurological health or just our health generally.

And obviously for a lot of years. I know for us, we've both been naturopaths for a few decades, so mould illness for a while there, really felt quite fringe and really under-recognised. And let's talk about how it became a really big deal on your radar and why this is now something you specialise in.

**0:02:05** - (Lisa): Yeah, well, look, first of all, thank you so much for giving me the opportunity to talk about this, because I think you're right, the more information that's out there and the more that people have an opportunity to understand if their environment is actually impacting their health is super important. 

I guess what happened for me over a decade now, was that it really was something that impacted both my son and myself and not so much the other family members, but probably in different ways. But my son had the world's worst Eczema you've ever seen, head-to-toe Eczema.

No matter what I did, both conventional and naturopathically, it just wasn't resolved. And to the point it was so bad that I think the last thing that the conventional medicine could offer for us at the time, was just ongoing prophylactic antibiotics, some experimental injections, and cyclosporin, which is an immunosuppressant drug. 

Now, he was only two. So full on. And it took us a long time to figure out that it was the house. Because we'd actually done a whole massive renovation of an old cottage. And we'd ripped up everything up, all the carpet, et cetera, and everything was low tox. So we had bio-paint on the walls, bio oil on the floors. So it was kind of like the last thing to have considered.

And then meanwhile, while he was unwell, it was kind of creeping up on me in terms of some of the symptoms I was getting. So I was starting to get forgetful and forget people's names. I couldn't integrate new information. I would burn things on the stove. I would forget pin numbers that I'd had for a long time. I'd get really cranky. So over the period of time, of course, I'd sort of notice and then I'd think, oh, maybe I've got blood sugar problem, or maybe I got a thyroid problem and there's all this stuff and thinking, oh, no.

And then eventually in you know, that deep dive as you do when you have health issues. On that I came across Dr. Shoemaker's work, and so that's how I got to be trained by Dr. Shoemaker and then, of course, recognised that there was actually mould. And by that stage, we had actually gotten mould on the walls in our bedrooms. And being the good naturopath, I was at the time thinking, oh, well, I'll just use white vinegar and clove oil to wipe that off. And then, of course, it would all grow back in the white marks of me trying to get rid of it.

That's how I sort of came across it, did the training, and then we spent a long time trying to get out of there because of course, the other thing it impacts is things like your ability to plan, like your executive cognitive functioning. So being able to think, oh, I've got to do this, this and this, and actually plan and execute that is a real struggle because your brain just can't bring things together.

And then there's the overwhelm. It's almost a little bit similar to what one might experience with a combination of dementia and attention deficit. It's kind of like not being able.. that executive functioning really is quite impaired. So anyway, took us a while to get out of there, and we eventually did. And my son now is an elite athlete, and he looks awesome, and his skin is awesome, and we got through it. The only thing that's still outstanding, I guess, is a little bit of anaphylaxis. But that's a work in progress. 

But yeah, that's how it came into my life. Basically. Because of that, I feel like I have on an ongoing basis over that decade, have just progressively always kept up with whatever the latest is, because the research on this is continuing.

**0:05:59** - (Bec): And also I will pop some links for anyone who wants to have a look into Dr. Ritchie Shoemaker's work, because he's kind of a bit of a pioneer when it comes to mould illness. And he does provide training for clinicians like Lisa has done. 

I suppose we should say, too, that mould illness is kind of a colloquial term, but it has more of a clinical term that we use and probably encompasses more about what it actually does. And do you want to talk about that?

**0:06:31** - (Lisa): Yeah. So I guess I referenced Dr. Shoemaker's work because that was something that was quite pioneering and new in terms of how we looked at the impact of mould. And the term that he coined was Chronic Inflammatory Response Syndrome, or CIRS. And that's one of the many ways that you can be affected by mould. And what that describes is a whole chronic inflammatory response that really triggers off the innate immune system, which is really systemic. So it affects quite a number of different systems in the body. So it's not just neural, but there's a whole lot of other things that impacts, like gut and etc. So it's not just brain function, but there's a lot of other things that happen as well, including hormones as well. So it's quite extensive and multisystem.

There are, just while we're on the topic, there are two other ways also that mould impact, that exposure to mould can also affect people, and that can be also an allergy to mould. So when I talk about Chronic Inflammatory Response Syndrome, that's actually not allergy, because that's more the innate immune system, whereas allergy is more what we call the adaptive immune system. So often people will be in a mouldy environment and get all these symptoms, and then they think, oh, and they can see some sort of correlation to mould. And so they'll go to the doctor and go, oh, I think I'm allergic to mould. I keep getting all these symptoms. They'll have an allergy test for mould that comes back normal, so that's more the inflammatory side. But people can also have be allergic as well. 

And then thirdly, people can also be what we call colonised. So you can actually, by inhaling the mould, you can actually get it into your lungs. And so some people can develop aspergillosis. So that's the joy of mould. But, yeah, you're right. There is that colloquial term we call mould illness. But really a lot of what I work on is Chronic Inflammatory Response Syndrome to mould.

**0:08:22** - (Bec): Yeah. And so it's kind of like, I suppose it's like peeling back those layers to the onion. Because when you're talking about a systemic as in like, a body-wide inflammatory process, I'm guessing that that looks different on everybody. So how do you teach people to pick it up? How do you recognise it? Especially too because I think for me, something I notice people say is, if you suggest that you could have a mould problem, they're like, oh, no, there's no mould in my house or my workplace.

**0:08:53** - (Lisa): So I think the key thing… there's a couple of key things in that one. If you're being treated for one particular thing, like, for example, if you're having treatment for SIBO, which is a small intestinal bacterial overgrowth, like, a gut issue and that just keeps happening over and over again. Or if you're sort of thinking that you're going through menopause and then treatment for that isn't necessarily working so often you can spot it when whatever treatment you're having isn't necessarily working.

The other thing too is that if it's multisystem. So if you've got neural issues as well as hormone issues as well as gut issues as well as etc etc. So you kind of can spot it when it's sort of multisystem. And the other thing too is if you just actually feel like there's a whole lot of stuff wrong with you and no one can find any answers and you have symptoms that are right across the board that's also a red flag in terms of identifying it. You really need to see someone who's skilled or trained in mould illness, to be honest, who really know how to be able to catch it. Because a lot of it is about looking at your specific case. But you're right, it does look different with different people. So if I was to give an example, if a whole family is in a home that has mould and sometimes it's not visible, sometimes it's in between the walls or in the ceiling, we don't know it's there.

**0:10:20** - (Bec): Or under flooring as well.

**0:10:22** - (Lisa): Under flooring. And so in our case in our house, the first time around that was actually a subfloor where sewerage was actually coming up underneath from the property behind us. Yes, for example, in our household we saw my son had allergies, I had the neural stuff. My husband ended up getting a bit of rosacea on his face but he was not there much because he commuted a lot interstate, for work and my daughter she would get hair loss and food intolerances and things like that. So it's different.

And then sometimes one person in the family will be really wiped out from an inflammatory perspective and everyone else will be normal. So sometimes people sort of come to me, by the time they come to me, they might feel a little bit for want of a different term, gaslit, in that they know there's something wrong with them, they've got all these symptoms and if someone says mould, they go well, I'm not sick and we're living in the same house. And so sometimes their partners aren't always supportive, but it can actually be different for different people and not everyone will get an inflammatory response.

**0:11:29** - (Bec): And some of that comes down to, I know something that I know you're also very well versed on is genetics. So people can have a higher susceptibility depending on what genes they carry. So that's why we can see these kinds of variances and particularly like a difference between each of the family members.

**0:11:48** - (Lisa): Yes, that's right. So one of the key genes that you can look at is the HLADQ and DR gene, which is also associated with coeliac, but it's actually different haplotypes that are associated with mould illness, not necessarily coeliac. So if you're coeliac, it doesn't necessarily mean that you have mould illness. They're slightly different haplotypes and that's why you do see that difference. But having said that, in practice, I also see people having CIRS that don't necessarily have those genes. So probably 95% of the patients will have those genes and others that will just be unlucky.

**0:12:27** - (Bec): Be unlucky, I knew you were going to say that because yeah, that's exactly right. Like if you've got mould illness… and I suppose something that we should talk about as well is it's life-altering. It's not just as simple as you said as cleaning with white vinegar and clove oil. In some cases, people have to literally throw out all their belongings. Like absolutely everything in the home can be affected by mould spores that have been circulating in the air, right?

**0:12:53** - (Lisa): Yeah, that's right. And look, that's a really important point because often people have health issues and they may not necessarily have significant mould in their current home, but it might have been in the previous home. And all their home contents that they brought with them to the current home have actually been contaminated. So one of the key things is that I say to patients, mould doesn't know the difference between one room to the other. It doesn't know to stay in one room. It wants to proliferate it's an organism and so it's wanting its spores to be everywhere it possibly can. So just moving in movement between one room to another can move things around. And also, it can be within furniture and soft furnishings. So even if there's not necessarily visible mould on the surface of something, it may actually be in it. 

So yeah, it's such a problem. I mean, one of the things that this is one of the problems I had for me is that we didn't know that stuff so much, so we've done it to ourselves twice. And some of things like books, for example, and they mightn’t look mouldy, but they'll just have like these little brown dots on the outside and they bring in them to the new house and off we go. It's like mould prebiotic.

**0:14:16** - (Bec): Yeah, you give it the right environment and it will thrive. We obviously have a lot of people in Australia that are both impacted by this now and potentially impacted more about this in the future because of all of the flooding and we have such a humid climate. So I think something like this, this area of clinical practice is only going to probably expand as time goes on.

**0:14:41** - (Lisa): Yes, that's correct. Look, I think the more awareness that people have as well, not just practitioners, but also that it's not okay just to wipe it down, you actually need to remove the water-damaged materials. Like, it's quite extensive and there's some level of regulation in terms of mould remediators, but not necessarily to the point of being aware of the level that needs to be done for someone who's suffering from CIRS.

So yeah, it's a major problem. And I think I probably have to say I've had heart palpitations watching those floods up in the northern rivers for example, because I was just thinking, you know, that's just epic, that's really going to impact a lot of people. So yes, it's really important for people to be aware of it. 

I do have on my website a few webinars that I have done in the past for practitioners to start to become aware of it and there'll be more to come as well. So definitely the more practitioners that are aware of it, the better.

**0:15:42** - (Bec): Definitely. 

**0:15:42** - (Lisa): And the other thing too is that there is a study that's being done in macro unit at the moment because we're trying to get more data to enable the actual condition to be recognized by conventional medicine as well. So we're probably, you know, what, research is like five to ten years away from that. But also the more that conventional medicine practitioners are aware the better as well.

**0:16:05** - (Bec): So in terms of conventional medicine, so you're suggesting there's no recognition for it as an illness. So therefore if there's no recognition for it as an illness, I'm assuming conventional medicine also offers no treatment options?

**0:16:21** - (Lisa): Yeah, basically. Because it's not a recognised condition. One, there's no training necessarily provided to conventional medicine practitioners, but also then it's not necessarily picked up in clinic, and it's also then not believed. So even if patients do figure that that might be what they have if they went to a conventional practitioner, they are unlikely to think that, well, not even know that that condition exists, basically. And so, unfortunately, what happens is a lot of patients go, I know there's something wrong I know there's something wrong with my house. And they basically get told it's in their head.

**0:17:02** - (Bec): And they get put on a roundabout of either perhaps antidepressants or psychological support, that kind of thing, when what they really need is probably something a bit more physical.

**0:17:12** - (Lisa): That's right.

**0:17:16** - (Bec): I can only see that that would be so frustrating for people if they were living that circumstance. It just makes me feel really sad.

**0:17:24** - (Lisa): I know, and I think that sometimes too, we know when patients come to me, sometimes even just the validation in itself is a first step towards healing as well. Because it's not fun walking around thinking you’re brainlessness and you know there's something wrong and everyone tells you it's just stress or it's just in your head.

**0:17:46** - (Bec): So I'm particularly interested in chatting about how this… because a lot of those symptoms you described, even the ones you experienced yourself, they really model, these early dementia kind of things. Like things like forgetting your own name or walking into a room if forgetting what you went there for. Or like you said, leaving things on the stove. Like this forgetfulness. And I'm sure that many of us have been gaslit by that as well. Like, oh my God, you're so forgetful, or you never listen to me. I'm sure people hear that kind of thing all the time and have probably never really thought about the fact that actually there could be neuroinflammation going on and there might be a trigger like mould.

**0:18:23** - (Lisa): Yeah, absolutely. And that's one of the key things it does, is that it does trigger off this neural inflammation. And I think even the studies by Dr. Dale Bredesen, who's done a lot of work on Alzheimer's, he's actually got a subclass called Inhalation Alzheimer's, which is predominantly, in his view, too, is from exposure to mycotoxins. So there is definitely some research out there that associates neuroinflammation with inhalation of mycotoxins.

So that's one way. So there's quite a number of ways it impacts. So one is like just the basic oxidative stress element. So the basics, like setting off oxidative stress then impacting the brain. You've got things like the neuro-immune axis, where it actually, in a lot of patients who are exposed to mycotoxins, they also go on to develop mast cell activation and that impacts the microglia in the brain. And so what we find is this is activation of mast cells, and then you've got this neuro-immune impact where you've got this whole brain inflammation going on, which then impacts things like attention and concentration and memory. 

Then the other thing is it impacts, I guess, mitochondria as well, which is also really important for brain function and cognitive impairments. So it affects mitochondria. Yeah, so there's quite a few things. And then there's the other part of it too, is it's indirectly affects in that, for example, it affects the gut. So it can affect… the actual mycotoxin impacts, actual gut lining. It can change the microbiome in your gut. And we know that there's a relationship between the microbiome and brain function. So there's an indirect response. 

It changes our hormones. So again, if your hormones are going to bottom out, which often happens, or you have excess oestrogen, again, that affects mood, emotion and cognitive ability. What else? Oh, yeah, microcirculation and the vascular system. So the oxygenation to the brain. So there's quite a few direct and indirect ways that it affects the neural system and the brain.

**0:20:42** - (Bec): Yeah. So some people might even feel, and this is true of a lot of neurological illnesses as well, like tingling in the fingers and toes and limbs or changes maybe even in the ability to control temperature, like hands might be hot or cold, that kind of thing.

**0:20:57** - (Lisa): Yes, that's right. So you do get numbing and tingling in the hands. And actually that was one of the things I had, too, which was odd, which made him keep looking too, because he was just that little bit further than just like a normal thing that would happen. So, yes, there is that neural element. Yeah, absolutely. And dizziness as well. Vertigo it affects as well. So the list goes on.

**0:21:22** - (Bec): Yeah. So aside from avoiding mould, what are some things that people can do? Or what's your best advice for, like you think you've got mould illness, what do I do now?

**0:21:38** - (Lisa): Well, I think if some of these symptoms are resonating with you, I think I definitely seek out a practitioner that has an expertise in mould and a mould illness per se, or CIRS, and that they can really do a good case and sort of unpack what might be happening. 

The other thing is though, is that also as part of that process, make sure you get someone out to actually assess your home. Because you might be sitting in a place that might be brand new and might be pristine all around you. And you think, nah, there's no way it's going to be mould, because I know that there's no mold in this house. Well, you'd be very surprised to know that that's actually not necessarily the case. And even in the second time it happened to me, I had a pristine white clinic and I even had a particular air filter in the room, just in case. But again, it was actually water damaged, which I wasn't aware of. So a lot of it is about getting the right people to come in and actually assess your home. Even if you can't see any mould, it could act like you said before, it could be under the subfloor, it could be in the roof, it could be even in the walls in between.

I had a patient, actually, who was an electrician, and he does a lot of new builds and he was telling me how much when he goes to put all the wiring and stuff in all the walls, how much he sees black mould actually inside some of the new builds. 

(Bec) In new builds? Wow. 

(Lisa) Yeah, because if you think a lot of the frames are left out in the rain for so long and then they're not necessarily perfectly dry when they then start building on top, just because you have a new place doesn't necessarily mean it's mould free.

But anyway, apart from that, yes, important to get away from the mould because the analogy to me is like it's saying to someone, oh yeah, I can totally support you health-wise while you're still living in walls with exposed asbestos. You know what I mean? You kind of need to do your best to try and get away from it. But then we got to think about, well, how we can move those mycotoxins because actually the mycotoxins of the mould that actually is more the problem. And they get given off when you try and kill it. So when you try and kill mould, it actually releases more mycotoxins. So I wouldn't recommend to actually go around madly now your house and spray… get the mould remover out because it's going to release all these mycotoxins and that will make you sicker. So you need to do that have a professional. 

So yeah, detoxification pathways is really important, particularly things like glucuronidation and also bile production because that's where the mycotoxins get recirculated in the system. So making sure that you have foods and herbs and nutrients that help with bile function. Reducing inflammation. So interventions to help with reducing inflammation. Interventions to help with mitochondria because we still need to try and have our brains back in the meantime. So supporting mitochondria and brain function is really important. So they're probably like the top liners.

**0:24:47** - (Bec): Yep. So from a naturopathic perspective, what are the kinds of herbs and nutrients that I guess you reach for when you're supporting people with mould illness?

**0:24:56** - (Lisa): Well, I think some of the key things, particularly when it comes to brain function, I tend to use things like the phosphatidylcholine or phosphatidylserine, those sorts of things. Lion's Mane is really important. That's really helpful for people's brain function and memory astaxanthin I think is a bit of a one that I don't think people know enough about and use enough. I think astaxanthin is awesome.

**0:25:21** - (Bec): It's got some amazing research too. Like it just keeps coming out with more cool stuff that you can use it for.

**0:25:27** - (Lisa): I know and I think originally I think I came across it for eye health, I think a long time ago. But I've really found it really good for cognition as well. And of course one of the other symptoms of mould is also blurred vision. So Astaxanthin is really helpful for that. 

And of course, we've got Ubiquinol (CoQ10) which is also really important for both mitochondria and brain function. The other thing that in terms of that whole inflammatory issue, I like to use Quercetin and Quercetin as actually there's some good research on the link between Quercetin reducing mass cells and inflammation and therefore helping with neural ability. So I think quercetin is probably one of my favorites.

Then you can use things like Ginkgo and Cynara scolymus which is globe artichoke, which is also really awesome because that helps you to produce bile as well, which is really important as part of detoxification. So they're probably a couple of the ones that I use.

**0:26:29** - (Bec): Yes, perfect. And is there any crossover with dietary things as well? Do you see that if somebody's got a mould illness that they'll typically react to certain foods or anything like that?

**0:26:48** - (Lisa): Yeah. So part of CIRS often people do develop sensitivities. Generally speaking, what's in Dr. Shoemaker's work, but of course you know there's other thought leaders that integrate naturopathy into that since then. But generally speaking, probably gluten is probably not fab, but often they develop further intolerances because not only is their gut affected but also you got the mast cell activation going on as well. So people will become more sensitive to foods.

In terms of a diet, if someone has mould illness, there's no specific mould diet per se. You may spot one on the internet, but to be honest, it's really the person that's in front of you. And generally speaking, they'll probably need to be on a low histamine because histamine gets released a lot as part of the mast cell activation. So you kind of want to have a low-inflammatory diet. So looking at reducing histamines, sometimes, depending on what the symptoms that they're getting, they may need support in terms of making sure they have consistent protein and good fats and things like that so that we can help with the brain function and also amino acids that are helpful for brain function as well.

So there's no one diet, but generally speaking, it would be low histamine. Sometimes a low SIBO diet and probably no gluten and dairy can also be inflammatory. So it just depends on the person that's sitting in front of them. But they're kind of like the top liners.

**0:28:20** - (Bec): Yeah, perfect. And so for people who don't want to navigate this on their own, how can they find you and/or people like you?

**0:28:31** - (Lisa): So if you go to my website, Lisamcdonald.com.au, on that website, there'll be all the information about how to work with me. And I would also recommend going and having a look at Toxic Mould Australia. They have a website as well that lists other practitioners as well who are Dr. Shoemaker trained.

**0:28:55** - (Bec): I'll make sure I put these in the notes by the way.

**0:28:59** - (Lisa): Be. And I would go to that website particularly to look for someone who's an assessor or a remediator because it's very hard navigating people out there that know to the level that it needs to be reviewed. But yeah, there's resources on my website as well.

**0:29:16** - (Bec): Yeah. And is that for people that do assessment, are they building biologists that do the mould assessment of buildings, or is it a different profession?

**0:29:31** - (Lisa): Building biologists? Yes, they can go out and do an assessment. There are also a couple of other people out there that are also assessors. They also have a building background as well. So a lot of the building biologists don't necessarily have a building background. So I think it depends on where you're at in your journey. And I think that whoever you get to come out, I would make sure that they're going to do a full report with photos and do air sampling, etc. If you can try and afford that as much as possible, because it's really important to understand what that is to then help with the remediation. But if someone was going to come out and look around and go, I can't see any mould, let's just fog it and off you go, I would be running a mile.

**0:30:17** - (Bec): And whose responsibility is it if someone's a renter? Is it up to the homeowner or the tenant to kind of do these assessments?

**0:30:27** - (Lisa): Well, that is a Pandora's box. That would be an hour conversation. You know, the rental laws between.. are different for different states. And one, because this is an illness that's not recognised, it's very difficult to get any sort of necessarily any support to the level that they might need. And often there is arguments between whose fault is as to why mould is there. Often it's usually put on the tenant, isn't it, that they didn't clean enough or they didn't air out the house enough, or what have you. But really, to get rid of mould, you actually need to get to the source of what's causing the water ingress, which in my opinion, would be more to do with the landlord. So they're usually the battles, and on.

**0:31:16** - (Bec): Yeah, and on a case by case basis, obviously, like, if a person's hanging six loads of washing inside their house and that's giving off, what is it? The average load of washing that you hang out can dissipate about five litres of water into the air. I remember that fact from environmental medicine thing.

**0:31:35** - (Lisa): And the other thing that I did in the first time it happened to us, I'd like cringe when I think about it, is that my son was starting to have respiratory problems. So what do you do when you're a naturopath? You put on a humidifier, right? So you're putting on this steam in the room to try and help with the cough. Yet with that extra moisture in the air, I was basically creating a beautiful environment for mould to come into our home.

**0:31:59** - (Bec): Yeah. You just sort of took to the fire with some gasoline, didn't you?

**0:32:05** - (Lisa): Ooh, yeah, in hindsight. Yes, I know. And look, and the other thing I didn't know was even the white vinegar actually feeds mould. So using the white vinegar and the clove oil actually wasn't a fabulous thing to do. And the bio-paint that we had, we didn't realise that actually has casein in it, which mould also found delicious as well. There was a lot of things I thought I was doing the right thing actually contributed to the problem.

**0:32:32** - (Bec): How frustrating. You need to write a book, Lisa.

**0:32:34** - (Lisa): I do, yes. Write that down.

**0:32:38** - (Bec): Yeah, write that down. Well, thank you so much. I can't thank you enough for sharing your expertise on this subject, because I think, like I said, it's a massive area and it's completely under-recognised. But especially working in this scope of brain health and brain well-being, I actually think it's this insidious, unseen fact in a lot of people's you know brain fog, dementia, forgetfulness, lack of attention to detail, not listening to their partners, whatever it might be. So, yeah. I can't thank you enough for joining me.

**0:33:10** - (Lisa): I'm really pleased to have the opportunity to talk about it. Thank you so much.

**0:33:13** - (Bec): Thank you.